Tapestry 5 Roadmap

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Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Petros Petrou
The tapestry 5 website says that the final release of T5 is fall 2007. Is this still realistic ? If not can you please provide a realistic date ?

Petros
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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Howard Lewis Ship
I'll have a better idea about the roadmap at the end of this week.

I've been working for a new consulting company, and the Big Project is not a
web app (it's in Swing).  This has slowed down progress on Tapestry 5, alas.

On 9/13/07, petros <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> The tapestry 5 website says that the final release of T5 is fall 2007. Is
> this still realistic ? If not can you please provide a realistic date ?
>
> Petros
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-5-Roadmap-tf4439437.html#a12666499
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>


--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Partner and Senior Architect at Feature50

Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Fernando Padilla
Is there any other developer working on T5 yet?
Is there anything we can do to help? (we're working on using T5 for
facebook production app, so we can devote time to helping).


(I would like to see the TAPESTRY-1600 in there. :)

Howard Lewis Ship wrote:

> I'll have a better idea about the roadmap at the end of this week.
>
> I've been working for a new consulting company, and the Big Project is not a
> web app (it's in Swing).  This has slowed down progress on Tapestry 5, alas.
>
> On 9/13/07, petros <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The tapestry 5 website says that the final release of T5 is fall 2007. Is
>> this still realistic ? If not can you please provide a realistic date ?
>>
>> Petros
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-5-Roadmap-tf4439437.html#a12666499
>> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Petros Petrou
In reply to this post by Howard Lewis Ship
Is it now possible to get a realistic date regarding the final release of T5.

I do understand the commitment to paying projects have a priority but the last year I have been facing  two main arguments that make my work as a consultant that aims to encourage clients to work with Tapestry very hard.
1. Tapestry is not backwards compatible (I have been pointing out that this problem is solved with T5 with the final release due this fall).
2. Tapestry is an one man show. The reply to my original question only enforces this argument.

I am currently consulting a company that is starting a multi-million J2EE project and it appears that I am loosing the battle of convincing them to choose T5 over JSF.

The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was "What happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus tomorrow"

Does anyone have any arguments that I can use to address the points raised above to prove that T5 should be chosen over JSF.

Thanks,
Petros


Howard Lewis Ship wrote
I'll have a better idea about the roadmap at the end of this week.

I've been working for a new consulting company, and the Big Project is not a
web app (it's in Swing).  This has slowed down progress on Tapestry 5, alas.

On 9/13/07, petros <petros@cypoz.com> wrote:
>
>
> The tapestry 5 website says that the final release of T5 is fall 2007. Is
> this still realistic ? If not can you please provide a realistic date ?
>
> Petros
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-5-Roadmap-tf4439437.html#a12666499
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>


--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Partner and Senior Architect at Feature50

Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Daniel Jue
>  "What
> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
> tomorrow"

Yes, please don't do that.

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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Yunhua Sang
> 2. Tapestry is an one man show. ..

Actually, this is one advantage of Tapestry: guaranteed quality.

On 10/17/07, Daniel Jue <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >  "What
> > happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
> > tomorrow"
>
> Yes, please don't do that.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Michael Kleen
In reply to this post by Petros Petrou
You seriously recommending a framework in a alpha status for a
multi-million dollar project ? Don't get me wrong,
i like tapestry and i'am using version 4.1 in 2 projects, but i would
never use alphas/betas framework without good documentation/books in
production.

michael

petros wrote:
> I am currently consulting a company that is starting a multi-million J2EE
> project and it appears that I am loosing the battle of convincing them to
> choose T5 over JSF.
>  


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RE: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Mark Stang
I am still on 3.03, not even 3.04 for one of my projects.  When Tapestry 5 gets where it is going, then maybe we will upgrade. I think the one thing that nobody is saying is that each version of Tapestry is in production use.  So, there are 3.0x in production and 4.x in production.  T5 will eventually be there and if you want to impact that and remove some of the risk, have your company spend some of that "multi-millions" on T5 either by paying Howard or by devoting you or another resource to the project.  Or have them do it on JSF and move on with their project. I currently have three different projects on two different versions of Tapestry.  We also have another being done with JSP's...

Mark J. Stang
Software Engineer
office: +1 303.468.2900
Ping Identity



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kleen [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wed 10/17/2007 9:24 AM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
 
You seriously recommending a framework in a alpha status for a
multi-million dollar project ? Don't get me wrong,
i like tapestry and i'am using version 4.1 in 2 projects, but i would
never use alphas/betas framework without good documentation/books in
production.

michael

petros wrote:
> I am currently consulting a company that is starting a multi-million J2EE
> project and it appears that I am loosing the battle of convincing them to
> choose T5 over JSF.
>  


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Andreas Andreou-4
In reply to this post by Petros Petrou
Hi,
from the dev-list i've seen that Daniel Gredler and Dan Adams
are 2 more quite active T5 committers.

petros wrote:

> Is it now possible to get a realistic date regarding the final release of T5.
>
> I do understand the commitment to paying projects have a priority but the
> last year I have been facing  two main arguments that make my work as a
> consultant that aims to encourage clients to work with Tapestry very hard.
> 1. Tapestry is not backwards compatible (I have been pointing out that this
> problem is solved with T5 with the final release due this fall).
> 2. Tapestry is an one man show. The reply to my original question only
> enforces this argument.
>
> I am currently consulting a company that is starting a multi-million J2EE
> project and it appears that I am loosing the battle of convincing them to
> choose T5 over JSF.
>
> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was "What
> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
> tomorrow"
>
> Does anyone have any arguments that I can use to address the points raised
> above to prove that T5 should be chosen over JSF.
>
> Thanks,
> Petros
>
>
>
> Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
>  
>> I'll have a better idea about the roadmap at the end of this week.
>>
>> I've been working for a new consulting company, and the Big Project is not
>> a
>> web app (it's in Swing).  This has slowed down progress on Tapestry 5,
>> alas.
>>
>> On 9/13/07, petros <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> The tapestry 5 website says that the final release of T5 is fall 2007. Is
>>> this still realistic ? If not can you please provide a realistic date ?
>>>
>>> Petros
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-5-Roadmap-tf4439437.html#a12666499
>>> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> --
>> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>> Partner and Senior Architect at Feature50
>>
>> Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind
>>
>>
>>    
>
>  

--
Andreas Andreou - [hidden email] - http://andyhot.di.uoa.gr
Tapestry / Tacos developer
Open Source / JEE Consulting


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

kranga
In reply to this post by Yunhua Sang
> Actually, this is one advantage of Tapestry: guaranteed quality.

That flies in the face of the philosophy of open source ...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yunhua Sang" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap


>> 2. Tapestry is an one man show. ..
>
> Actually, this is one advantage of Tapestry: guaranteed quality.
>
> On 10/17/07, Daniel Jue <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> >  "What
>> > happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
>> > tomorrow"
>>
>> Yes, please don't do that.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>

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RE: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Jean-Philippe Steinmetz-2
 -----Original Message-----
> From: kranga [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 5:29 PM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
>
> > Actually, this is one advantage of Tapestry: guaranteed quality.
>
> That flies in the face of the philosophy of open source ...

Funny, I always thought the philosophy of open source was the sharing of
knowledge. I fail to see how that has any bearing on whether that knowledge
comes from one person or thousands.

Jean-Philippe


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Alex Shneyderman
In reply to this post by Petros Petrou
> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was "What
> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
> tomorrow"

I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be answering:
Is the current base usable enough to push through on the project?. A
relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not exactly) to answer
how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you have to. And
how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base to fix bugs that
might exist and you will find during the project's development.

If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is probably the best
choice to make from what's available out there :-)

Alex.

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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

kranga
The question is very relevant. The concern of the project should be to build
out the business functionality using existing tools. If the tools in
question are not yet released and in production, there is a very legitimate
concern that the maintenance of the tool will become a partial focus.
Tapestry may be a compelling offering technologically, but it has many other
factors going against it - lack of a developer mindshare, incompatible
releases in the past, etc. We have used Tapestry for big projects - but we
are still using T3 since T4 and T5 are completely incompatible. You cannot
push beta software past project stakeholders unless that beta software is
also providing you with competitive advantage. T5 has some able competitors
in Wicket and JSF/Stripes, etc while still lacking an ajax foundation for
instance. So the competitive advantage is not clear cut.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Shneyderman" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap


>> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was "What
>> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
>> tomorrow"
>
> I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be answering:
> Is the current base usable enough to push through on the project?. A
> relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not exactly) to answer
> how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you have to. And
> how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base to fix bugs that
> might exist and you will find during the project's development.
>
> If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is probably the best
> choice to make from what's available out there :-)
>
> Alex.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Petros Petrou
I think Kranga is spot on. As a software engineer, my personal opinion is, that from a technical point of view Tapestry 5 is the best framework out there. However, going to client sites aiming to convince the stakeholders to adopt T5 is extremely difficult because they have absolutely no technical knowledge.

Alex is right that the core of Tapestry 5 is quite stable and we can still fix Tapestry 5 bugs ourselves. However, putting such an argument in front of a Chief Technology Officer or a Chief Architect begs for the following response.

"I do not have the budget, time or interest to develop another web framework. I want to use an existing one to implement my business requirements ASAP and with a minimum budget"

Petros



kranga wrote
The question is very relevant. The concern of the project should be to build
out the business functionality using existing tools. If the tools in
question are not yet released and in production, there is a very legitimate
concern that the maintenance of the tool will become a partial focus.
Tapestry may be a compelling offering technologically, but it has many other
factors going against it - lack of a developer mindshare, incompatible
releases in the past, etc. We have used Tapestry for big projects - but we
are still using T3 since T4 and T5 are completely incompatible. You cannot
push beta software past project stakeholders unless that beta software is
also providing you with competitive advantage. T5 has some able competitors
in Wicket and JSF/Stripes, etc while still lacking an ajax foundation for
instance. So the competitive advantage is not clear cut.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Shneyderman" <a.shneyderman@gmail.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <users@tapestry.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap


>> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was "What
>> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a bus
>> tomorrow"
>
> I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be answering:
> Is the current base usable enough to push through on the project?. A
> relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not exactly) to answer
> how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you have to. And
> how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base to fix bugs that
> might exist and you will find during the project's development.
>
> If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is probably the best
> choice to make from what's available out there :-)
>
> Alex.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Petros Petrou
In reply to this post by Michael Kleen
Yes I Michael, I know how this sounds but is a bit more complicated than that.

Let me just say that I was hoping for the final T5 release to be at the end of this month so it can be ready for "us" by June 2008. That would have been good enough since I do agree T5 is the best framework I have worked with.

This is why an update on the T5 roadmap is important for us.

Petros

Michael Kleen wrote
You seriously recommending a framework in a alpha status for a
multi-million dollar project ? Don't get me wrong,
i like tapestry and i'am using version 4.1 in 2 projects, but i would
never use alphas/betas framework without good documentation/books in
production.

michael

petros wrote:
> I am currently consulting a company that is starting a multi-million J2EE
> project and it appears that I am loosing the battle of convincing them to
> choose T5 over JSF.
>  


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Christian Gruber-5
In reply to this post by kranga
I'm not sure where "incompatible releases" comes in.  No one releases  
1.0 -> 2.0 compatible releases except O/S vendors.  That's typically  
what the large version number change means - these are incompatible.  
That's not a strike against Tapestry, that's an industry expectation.

Christian


On 18-Oct-07, at 6:45 AM, kranga wrote:

> The question is very relevant. The concern of the project should be  
> to build out the business functionality using existing tools. If the  
> tools in question are not yet released and in production, there is a  
> very legitimate concern that the maintenance of the tool will become  
> a partial focus. Tapestry may be a compelling offering  
> technologically, but it has many other factors going against it -  
> lack of a developer mindshare, incompatible releases in the past,  
> etc. We have used Tapestry for big projects - but we are still using  
> T3 since T4 and T5 are completely incompatible. You cannot push beta  
> software past project stakeholders unless that beta software is also  
> providing you with competitive advantage. T5 has some able  
> competitors in Wicket and JSF/Stripes, etc while still lacking an  
> ajax foundation for instance. So the competitive advantage is not  
> clear cut.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Shneyderman" <[hidden email]
> >
> To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
>
>
>>> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was  
>>> "What
>>> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a  
>>> bus
>>> tomorrow"
>>
>> I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be  
>> answering:
>> Is the current base usable enough to push through on the project?. A
>> relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not exactly) to  
>> answer
>> how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you have to.  
>> And
>> how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base to fix  
>> bugs that
>> might exist and you will find during the project's development.
>>
>> If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is probably the  
>> best
>> choice to make from what's available out there :-)
>>
>> Alex.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Christian Gruber-5
In reply to this post by Petros Petrou
I think this merely means that T5 should release sooner than later  
with a smaller functionality set, and release a 5.1 with the  
additional features.  At this point, it's part perception, etc.  But  
if the core is stable, then 5.0-RELEASE could be compared with JSF,  
Wicket, etc. on a feature-for-feature basis.  It wouldn't have the  
additional burden of "unreleased" software.  I mean it's at 5.0.5  
right now, which in my mind IS released...  Certainly my time to  
market even factoring in learning-curve has improved over JSF or  
Struts 2.

Christian.



On 18-Oct-07, at 9:34 AM, petros wrote:

>
> I think Kranga is spot on. As a software engineer, my personal  
> opinion is,
> that from a technical point of view Tapestry 5 is the best framework  
> out
> there. However, going to client sites aiming to convince the  
> stakeholders to
> adopt T5 is extremely difficult because they have absolutely no  
> technical
> knowledge.
>
> Alex is right that the core of Tapestry 5 is quite stable and we can  
> still
> fix Tapestry 5 bugs ourselves. However, putting such an argument in  
> front of
> a Chief Technology Officer or a Chief Architect begs for the following
> response.
>
> "I do not have the budget, time or interest to develop another web
> framework. I want to use an existing one to implement my business
> requirements ASAP and with a minimum budget"
>
> Petros
>
>
>
>
> kranga wrote:
>>
>> The question is very relevant. The concern of the project should be  
>> to
>> build
>> out the business functionality using existing tools. If the tools in
>> question are not yet released and in production, there is a very
>> legitimate
>> concern that the maintenance of the tool will become a partial focus.
>> Tapestry may be a compelling offering technologically, but it has  
>> many
>> other
>> factors going against it - lack of a developer mindshare,  
>> incompatible
>> releases in the past, etc. We have used Tapestry for big projects -  
>> but we
>> are still using T3 since T4 and T5 are completely incompatible. You  
>> cannot
>> push beta software past project stakeholders unless that beta  
>> software is
>> also providing you with competitive advantage. T5 has some able
>> competitors
>> in Wicket and JSF/Stripes, etc while still lacking an ajax  
>> foundation for
>> instance. So the competitive advantage is not clear cut.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alex Shneyderman" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
>>
>>
>>>> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous  
>>>> was "What
>>>> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a  
>>>> bus
>>>> tomorrow"
>>>
>>> I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be  
>>> answering:
>>> Is the current base usable enough to push through on the project?. A
>>> relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not exactly) to  
>>> answer
>>> how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you have to.  
>>> And
>>> how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base to fix  
>>> bugs
>>> that
>>> might exist and you will find during the project's development.
>>>
>>> If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is probably  
>>> the best
>>> choice to make from what's available out there :-)
>>>
>>> Alex.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tapestry-5-Roadmap-tf4439437.html#a13273517
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

angelochen
Hi Chris,

Can't agree more. T5 is stable enough to be released. if I was hesitant to learn a unreleased T5 for my first web framework at beginning, how much more a businese putting their project development on it? the only reason I can think of is, maybe there is still some plans to change something in the framework? if not, then sooner released the better, just my 2 cents,

A.C.

Christian Gruber-4 wrote
I think this merely means that T5 should release sooner than later  
with a smaller functionality set, and release a 5.1 with the  
additional features.  At this point, it's part perception, etc.  But  
if the core is stable, then 5.0-RELEASE could be compared with JSF,  
Wicket, etc. on a feature-for-feature basis.  It wouldn't have the  
additional burden of "unreleased" software.  I mean it's at 5.0.5  
right now, which in my mind IS released...  Certainly my time to  
market even factoring in learning-curve has improved over JSF or  
Struts 2.

Christian.
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Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

kranga
In reply to this post by Christian Gruber-5
That is an incredible statement! There have been numerous discussions on
this mailing list on the way T4 was made completely incompatible since it
was going to incorporate the very best and then T5 was made even more
incompatible to incorporate the latest. This has been a vexing issue with
quite a few people and organizations who invested in T3/T4 based projects.

By way of example, tell me how these products are not compatible within
major releases:
Websphere 4, 5, 6
WebLogic:  8, 9, 10
MySQL: 4, 5
Hibernate: 2, 3

There are some pieces that change and new features are introduced. But your
don't have to do a major rewrite to use the newer version. As an example, if
T5 were T4 + annotations, that would be a compatible release. But Howard has
chosen to rewrite it from the ground up with no compatiblity concern. Well,
thats his prerogative as this is open-source community driven development.
If I want, I can take the T3 code base and establish my own framework.
However, it also reflects on the popularly or lack of for Tapestry. This
topic has been beaten to death and I don't wish to bring it up again.
However, your point regarding versions was egregious.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Gruber" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap


> I'm not sure where "incompatible releases" comes in.  No one releases
>  1.0 -> 2.0 compatible releases except O/S vendors.  That's typically
> what the large version number change means - these are incompatible.
> That's not a strike against Tapestry, that's an industry expectation.
>
> Christian
>
>
> On 18-Oct-07, at 6:45 AM, kranga wrote:
>
>> The question is very relevant. The concern of the project should be  to
>> build out the business functionality using existing tools. If the  tools
>> in question are not yet released and in production, there is a  very
>> legitimate concern that the maintenance of the tool will become  a
>> partial focus. Tapestry may be a compelling offering  technologically,
>> but it has many other factors going against it -  lack of a developer
>> mindshare, incompatible releases in the past,  etc. We have used Tapestry
>> for big projects - but we are still using  T3 since T4 and T5 are
>> completely incompatible. You cannot push beta  software past project
>> stakeholders unless that beta software is also  providing you with
>> competitive advantage. T5 has some able  competitors in Wicket and
>> JSF/Stripes, etc while still lacking an  ajax foundation for instance. So
>> the competitive advantage is not  clear cut.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Shneyderman"
>> <[hidden email]
>> >
>> To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
>>
>>
>>>> The one question I could not answer without looking ridiculous was
>>>> "What
>>>> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is hit by a  bus
>>>> tomorrow"
>>>
>>> I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be
>>> answering:
>>> Is the current base usable enough to push through on the project?. A
>>> relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not exactly) to
>>> answer
>>> how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you have to.  And
>>> how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base to fix  bugs
>>> that
>>> might exist and you will find during the project's development.
>>>
>>> If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is probably the
>>> best
>>> choice to make from what's available out there :-)
>>>
>>> Alex.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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AW: Tapestry 5 Roadmap

Maximilian Weißböck
In reply to this post by Petros Petrou
We have a T3 and a T4 Appliaction in production
and hopefully will start a T5 development soon.

I do not see a real big problem in this versions not beeing
compatible.

I also think you compare different kind of beasts if you compare
Websphere with Tapestry.

It's more like EJB 2.x to EJB 3 - and nobody cried out its
incompatible.

Compatibility can be the reason for stagnancy - and that is the
one thing you can not balme Tapestry for :-)

If you are happy with T4, just stay with it, it's maintained
well, we just updated to 4.1.3 with no problem.

just my 2 Cents, Max

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: kranga [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 13:00
> An: Tapestry users
> Betreff: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
>
> That is an incredible statement! There have been numerous
> discussions on
> this mailing list on the way T4 was made completely
> incompatible since it
> was going to incorporate the very best and then T5 was made even more
> incompatible to incorporate the latest. This has been a
> vexing issue with
> quite a few people and organizations who invested in T3/T4
> based projects.
>
> By way of example, tell me how these products are not
> compatible within
> major releases:
> Websphere 4, 5, 6
> WebLogic:  8, 9, 10
> MySQL: 4, 5
> Hibernate: 2, 3
>
> There are some pieces that change and new features are
> introduced. But your
> don't have to do a major rewrite to use the newer version. As
> an example, if
> T5 were T4 + annotations, that would be a compatible release.
> But Howard has
> chosen to rewrite it from the ground up with no compatiblity
> concern. Well,
> thats his prerogative as this is open-source community driven
> development.
> If I want, I can take the T3 code base and establish my own
> framework.
> However, it also reflects on the popularly or lack of for
> Tapestry. This
> topic has been beaten to death and I don't wish to bring it up again.
> However, your point regarding versions was egregious.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christian Gruber" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
>
>
> > I'm not sure where "incompatible releases" comes in.  No
> one releases
> >  1.0 -> 2.0 compatible releases except O/S vendors.  That's
> typically
> > what the large version number change means - these are
> incompatible.
> > That's not a strike against Tapestry, that's an industry
> expectation.
> >
> > Christian
> >
> >
> > On 18-Oct-07, at 6:45 AM, kranga wrote:
> >
> >> The question is very relevant. The concern of the project
> should be  to
> >> build out the business functionality using existing tools.
> If the  tools
> >> in question are not yet released and in production, there
> is a  very
> >> legitimate concern that the maintenance of the tool will become  a
> >> partial focus. Tapestry may be a compelling offering  
> technologically,
> >> but it has many other factors going against it -  lack of
> a developer
> >> mindshare, incompatible releases in the past,  etc. We
> have used Tapestry
> >> for big projects - but we are still using  T3 since T4 and T5 are
> >> completely incompatible. You cannot push beta  software
> past project
> >> stakeholders unless that beta software is also  providing you with
> >> competitive advantage. T5 has some able  competitors in Wicket and
> >> JSF/Stripes, etc while still lacking an  ajax foundation
> for instance. So
> >> the competitive advantage is not  clear cut.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Shneyderman"
> >> <[hidden email]
> >> >
> >> To: "Tapestry users" <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:22 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Tapestry 5 Roadmap
> >>
> >>
> >>>> The one question I could not answer without looking
> ridiculous was
> >>>> "What
> >>>> happens to our multi-million dollar project if Howard is
> hit by a  bus
> >>>> tomorrow"
> >>>
> >>> I think the question is irrelevant. The question you should be
> >>> answering:
> >>> Is the current base usable enough to push through on the
> project?. A
> >>> relevant after-question (if answer to the above is not
> exactly) to
> >>> answer
> >>> how easy it is to add the features you are missing if you
> have to.  And
> >>> how easy it is to poke through the tapestry's source-base
> to fix  bugs
> >>> that
> >>> might exist and you will find during the project's development.
> >>>
> >>> If you can cross off HLS as your dependency then t5 is
> probably the
> >>> best
> >>> choice to make from what's available out there :-)
> >>>
> >>> Alex.
> >>>
> >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
>
>
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>

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